Leeham News and Analysis
There's more to real news than a news release.
Leeham News and Analysis
- Boeing 3Q deliveries up despite strike October 8, 2024
- Strike slows Boeing’s march toward improving safety culture October 7, 2024
- Aerospace supply chain still ailing; Sustainable Aviation Fuel isn’t the answer to go green October 4, 2024
- Bjorn’s Corner: New engine development. Part 27. Long developments October 4, 2024
- Longshoreman strike adds to Airbus, Boeing woes October 1, 2024
Boeing, IAM reach tentative agreement on new contract
By Scott Hamilton
- IAM 751 and Boeing reach a four year contract agreement. The IAM summary is here.
- Additional contract news from the IAM is here.
- The Boeing fact sheet is here: Boeing fact sheet IAM 751 W24 TA highlights-090824a
Boeing CEO Kelly Ortberg. Photo source: Boeing. The new contract agreement between Boeing and the IAM 751 avoids a strike and potentially marks a new era of labor relations between the two.
Sept. 8, 2024, © Leeham News: In a development that is contrary to all expectations, The Boeing Co. and the IAM 751 labor union reached a tentative agreement this morning on a new four-year contract.
IAM members, who assemble Boeing’s airplanes in the great Seattle area, get a 25% raise over the life of the contract; the union asked for 40%. The value goes up to 33% in “wage growth” when the wage increases, and “progression” are calculated. Certain pay grades did get a 42.3% increase, the IAM said.
There is a lump sum payment of $3,000 and Boeing’s 401(k) contribution increases up to $4,160 per employee per year. The union asked for a return to a defined benefit plan, which was probably a non-starter. Lower costs for medical care were agreed.
Boeing committed to build the next new airplane in the Seattle area. A Boeing spokesperson did not have details whether this would be in Renton, where 737s are built, or Everett, where widebody aircraft are currently assembled. Boeing also committed to keep the current 737, 767 and 777X production in Puget Sound.
The union also wanted a seat on the Boeing Board of Directors. Neither side referred to the seat in their information released today, so it appears this may not have been agreed. The Boeing spokesperson had no information on this and the IAM wasn’t immediately available to comment.
The IAM leadership unanimously recommends approval of the contract. The vote is set for this Thursday.
New labor era
The agreement may mark a new era of cooperation between Boeing and the union. Contract negotiations since 2005 have been contentious. A 57-day strike occurred in 2008, leading then-CEO Jim McNerney to declare war on the unions. A second 787 production line was established in Charleston (SC) the following year. McNerney used the threat of moving 737 production from Renton in 2011 to amend the contract, peppered with concessions by the union; and again in 2013 with a threat to build the 777X elsewhere. The union rejected a new concessionary amended contract in December 2013 but narrowly approved one in January 2014.
When Kelly Ortberg replaced CEO David Calhoun on Aug. 8 this year, he quickly visited the factories and met with 751 president Jon Holden–a meeting typically avoided by Boeing’s CEOs. Ortberg said he wanted a new era of cooperation and collaboration. This contract was his first test–and the effort was successful.
Indeed, very surprising
Glad for Boeing, glad for Airbus and even more for the supply chain!
It’s an important step for sure. See what can be done with the right approach to leadership!
I presume Ortberg was heavily involved in this result. He’s done pretty well; he seems to have made the union happy without too much effort, no apparent animosity and with the Union seemingly committed to playing their part in rescuing the company. And he’d done this without fully caving in too.
So far as I can tell Ortberg has achieved this through being a nice guy, looking and acting like he does indeed give a damn about what the staff are doing, taking a direct interest, and being honest about the financial hole they’re all in. Just goes to show how bad Boeing’s leadership has been in recent decades…
As company morale starts improving as a result of these kinds of moves on Ortberg’s part, I expect that a lot of mistakes will stop happening. Unhappy people fully dedicated to doing things properly are simply more prone to error than happy people. If Ortberg can establish a no blame self-empowered QC/QA workforce / ethos along the lines of the Japanese model, Boeing’s quality problems would become a thing of the past.
Expanding the QC workforce is the slow part, but a big slice of it is motivating and empowering all the staff to raise quality issues no matter what that does to the production schedule. Boeing has previously operated the “Andon” system, made a big public splash about doing so, but it seems that anyone who put their hand up saying “there’s a problem here” got penalised for disrupting the schedule, not rewarded.
I sense that Ortberg is the kind of guy who’d thank a worker for highlighting a production quality issue.
While I have some disagreements with bits and pieces, the overall reflects fully the way I feel.
Maybe less nice guy with Ortberg and a good manager who understands how a company works and that without workers you got nothing.
In a way the union is s low hanging fruit in a good way. Workers want to know they are respected and appreciated. Yea they want the money but respect is what gets them behind the job.
And yes I have been there, I have seen both good and mediocre and bad.
He won’t fix it all in a year, there is too much torn down. But he clearly is focusing on the base need first and he can build from there.
But, it didn’t go down well enough with the actual workers…
Still a significant chance membership rejects this contract. Guessing that most recent hires will vote in favor, but the majority of guys with more history have such strong taste of bile in their mouths over recent contract take aways that they’ll vote no. Will be interesting to see the final tally.
Dominic Gates has a scathing report on Boeing’s continuous and quit possibly worsening production woes on the 777X program.
“As strike looms, Boeing pushes 777 jets through chaotic production in Everett”
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/as-strike-looms-boeing-pushes-777-jets-through-chaotic-production-in-everett/
I saw that article yesterday — it should be mandatory reading for every financial analyst covering BA.
Complete and utter chaos, dangerous corner-cutting, and structural violation of FAA documenting rules.
“Just ship it”
No disagreement on the issues and the chaos Calhoun has left (as well as his predecessors)
Its not going to be better tomorrow. In a year it will be better but the work to fix it is going to take many years.
Invest in your workforce, your research & tools and built great products are basic rules that seems to be values of the new management. Well done 👍
Yea verily!
Very good news indeed, but don’t pop the champagne just yet. Despite the Union recommendation, it’s not a slam dunk that the members will actually vote to accept the offer. There remains a lot of lingering anger among the rank and file over the last decade plus of abuse they’ve endured from previous Boeing leadership.
And I have to wonder how many current union members will still be around when Boeing begins building that next new airplane. That is a LONG way off.
As we are seeing, older workers not forgiving. Younger ones with a full career will like a good workplace vs what they have.
The problem is, you can’t fix what has been messed up with money. I managed a decent quitting work with a lot less than they get or are getting.
Boeing board finally did the right thing. Sometimes we sacrifice or wind up 0n the sacrificial alter for the next generation.
Boeing looks to have a good CEO now. And Calhoun and his predecessors were the worst.
People do not work better if you pay them better. Yea there is some fudge there but money does not suddenly make you more skilled. It can keep good people and it can make a career attractive.
It can improve morale and work effort and results. Money alone does not do that, toxic work is toxic work. Ortberg is offering a return to a better work place. He can’t turn it on a dime. Its a years long effort and some simply are too short sighted to recolonize that.
I hope the majority of the workers see it in that view. Been there, done that, got run over and I managed in a lot worse. I would have given parts of my body the better outcome that came after I had quit (who knows, maybe that is what got to them, uhhh we are loosing our good people and they were the glue holding it together).
I wonder how the ratification vote will go. Big news (?) that the next aircraft will be built in the Seattle area- if there ever is one. 😉
Still don’t trust that outfit.
If the clean sheet project is launched within four years.
I wonder what’s the impact on program accounting once/if the deal is ratified. Could there be a one-off special charge coming??
You noticed that too. It’s not a given that a new plane launches that quickly. But it does set the bias towards the next aircraft in the future. Boeing will have to negotiate that out of a future contract if they want to change their minds
As good a summary as I have seen.
The commitment to the NW is a long term part but it also has a near term affect in that it negates the previous disasters of threatening to move out. IE a commitment from Boeing that its a different take on working with the Union.
Contrast to that with the threats and the McNeneary cowering workers. He was the worst as actively trying to kill unions and Social Security as a side line.
The followers mgt were a meh type that did nothing but did not have his agenda.
This marks Ortberg as a sea change. Actually talking to people and visiting fatalities instead of champagne weeks in the mansion (he had one not in Maine as well)
It says they gave a 25% increase in wagers but what it doesn’t say is they taking away 14.8% in incentives which equals 10.2% increase over 4 years. 2.55%/year. This is an increase from the 7% they gave over the last 12 years .58%/year, but not enough to cover the inflation rate over the last 10 years. It is unbelievable that they are recommending this contract.
It seems highly unlikely to me that a new Boeing aircraft will be launched in the next four years.
I think that is exactly the intent of the contract: promising supposed value conditional on an event that is not supposed to happen in the contract time frame.
That’s how I see it, as well. Could the IAM rank-and-file really be taken in by such a flimsy offer?
That part at least is fluff.
Of course
Boeing employee here nobody I have talked to is going to accept this contract.
And the good news is you get to vote on it.
Most of us never had that option.
Kill Boeing, ok, then what?
How likely is the deal be ratified on Thursday?
A strike needs 2/3 of votes??
‘There are 578 comments on @IAM751’s Facebook page. And the overwhelmingly recurring comment on the tentative agreement is “Strike!”
Passage of this contract has a long way to go.’
https://x.com/jonostrower/status/1832845103880442281
Thanks for that info and link. No defined-benefit pension is one dealbreaker, it seems
to me. Go, rank-and-file!
I think improvements to the NB segment are necessary for Boeing. In the sense that if they ignore, deny, the already superior A220, A320 and C919 families will still have new variants and enhancements added and Boeing will be marginalized if they sit on their hands.
I’m not a strong believer in the MAX backlog. If half of those 4700 737s will be delivered in the next 5 years, they are lucky. Then, after 63(!) years, it’s over for the 737. Whether we like it or not.
Oops, I said it.
I also think alternatives will be presenting themselves for customers presently in the nominal 737MAX queue- and likely sooner rather
than later.
Wonder how things are going over at Ryanair.
Indeed — an aviation sector downturn has started to manifest itself, with deferrals and cancellations on the cards.
Due to BA’s worsening delivery delays, most of its order book for the 777X and MAX can be cancelled without penalty, together with a growing portion of the 787 order book.
Not a very reassuring picture.
keesje:
You are right.
Yes the backlog can go away, but it also can be convert slots for a future aircraft (what do we call it if its a twin aisle?)
Ortberg understands that, but he can’t flip a switch and have the production rolling either.
R&D will be looking at TTBW data and determining if there is a bust there make it a non starter and what the options are.
A select group people demanded that Boeing do something and now they have they still don’t like it. Shrug.
TW agree. It would be great if a big part of the MAX backlog could be converted into the new Boeing NB. I think many airlines would love to commit to a Boeing NB 5-10% better than the NEO’s. Doesn’t have to be a moonshot. Just to have choice, competition.
About the TTBW, it’s a nice project. The concepts have been studied for decades under various program names. Many scale models have been tunnel tested and numerous CFD models made have been used in hundreds of detailed simulations.
Simulations proved pretty accurate 20 years ago already and since then only improved. So everybody knows pretty well how TTBW configurations work, what the consequences are. Good enough to make decisions if they want too.
Finance is a drama at Boeing ATM (-$50B) and we know the backgrounds (short term greed). Developing a TRL 7+ NB covering 120-200 seats up to 3200 NM will cost $20B.
Maybe US government should step in (covertly) to safe the sector, they have dozens of tools to inject. But they will demand an end to the capitalist short term free cash flow maximization that brought Boeing and its supply chain to its knees.
Producing new aircraft exclusively in the US by $70-100k / year employees because we feel we’re the best & that’s how we always did it? Good luck! Time for reality check there too.
One wonders how much this deal is going to cost Boeing…and how the company will recuperate those increased costs.
Less discounting on future sales?
Applying thumbscrews to suppliers is no longer an option.
Increased line rates are still a long way off (see last week’s Seattle Times article on ongoing production chaos) — and, even then, the current order book has little-to-no margin with which to cover costs.
This news is great for the employees concerned — but it’s a major financial headache for BA.
Well it seems like Leeham answered that, behind the paywall but up front it was the use of stock.
While I see some posting doom and gloom, well last week it was no contract and a strike and now its, well there is an offer Union heads agreed to.
Maybe be turned down, that is their prerogative. Or maybe it passes by a hair.
I guess that is why we are not in the drivers seat, the financial drivers know what the options are and for a big company, there are always options.
Stonk is worthless if the upper management continue their misadventures; take a look at GM, the stock has performed badly compared with the overall market since the co. was listed in late 2010.
So, BA has agreed to build the Next Boeing Airplane in the Seattle area 👍
Slight problem: there’s no money for such a project…and there won’t be for a *very* long time to come.
Quite a meaningless concession, it would seem.
With the caveat that it could be turned down, this is what I expected. That depends on the mood of the rank and file and how in touch the leadership is with them.
I saw nothing but doom and gloom gotcha write ups. Ortberg is not stupid nor is the board who chose him.
At worst its a start point on the wage end, the rest looks what they asked for. Close enough if turned down they continue to negotiate on a timeline and continue working.
The usual suspects will doom and gloom this of course, but as its real world, we will know in a few days and they take it from there.
Any recent news on the pending 737-7 and 737-10 certifications? Last I heard was 2026-ish.
I wonder how Southwest is thinking about the former, in particular.
It’s a little odd that IAM leadership and Boeing leadership came to an agreement between themselves *well before* the potential strike date..
Looking forward to the IAM rank-and-file’s vote on this agreement.
This new contract doesn’t do anything good for the old timers, 3K signing bonus is a joke, they wasted so much money on the other programs, again the Union Leadership sold us out, they should canceled this new contract and send a much better because this will get voted NO for the contract and Yes for a STRIKE on Sept. 12, 2024.
I am truly sorry you feel that way.
I wish you the best going forward and the union.
5 years after I quit FedEx finally took the work back in house. I worked there for 25 years, did not get any of the annual bonuses FedEx people got, did not get the salary I should have. Ruptured a disk as work. I live with that to this day.
But you know, I was able to quit, I did great work and I am proud of all of it.
My mom was most proud of her sons because we all did good.
A lot of money would be nice but I did get enough and there are other things in the world.
Don’t Americans have free will and know what’s in their best interest? No need to lecture. 🤦
People are talking in the news like this is a done deal. We have not yet begun to fight. There is no way in hell we are accepting this joke of a contract offer. Not sure how the union went from “Boeing needs to step
Up” to “yay, we did it” in less than 24 hrs. Hey Jim Holden, blink twice if there’s a gun in your back. This contract is trash and it’s an insult to the workforce after 16 years of takeaways and garbage. We will strike and we will hold the line until Boeing bleeds. They don’t want a strike? Then they shouldn’t have offered this insult of a contract.
I sold my stock, hope you get what you want. BK is right around the corner with that attitude.
BK is the way to go anyway. Clear up the books.
It is odd, that a “deal” was done so early. Would have been smarter to wait to the deadline. Curious how much push the White House had in this.
Nothing wrong with the expressed attitude: employees are tired of being milked and exploited, and they’ve drawn a red line.
Fascinating that Airbus can pay its employees well, give them generous benefits — and still make a decent profit and continue to win market share.
Funny you don’t mention the money-losing deals for Airbus to get there. Or were you not astute back in the 80s and 90s?
Don’t worry, your titillating dream is about to come true. The big bad Boeing will need to restructure soon. Cementing Airbus’ rise to the top for decades to come.
Boeing and Airbus are working on ways to screw airplanes together with less workers. We will see how understanding Airbus workers are of that concept on the next-gen NB.
That’s fresh — comparing BA today with AB 40 years ago 🤭
Talking now about 2024 — not the past and not the future.
At present, one OEM screws its employees, and still can’t make a dime profit…while its competitor pays its employees well, and makes a handsome profit doing so. That’s remarkable.
As regards your last paragraph: AB processes are already highly automated, and its employees don’t seem to have an issue with that…
It’s not fresh, just an inconvenient fact for some.
Airbus has stated it wants to reduce workers needed to build an aircraft, another inconvenient fact. Both OEMs and others are working on it. Some call it progress. Meh. Sure Airbus employees are watching how VW and its German unions dealing with its first German plant shutdown.
Kudos to Airbus for getting to the top. It will be there for a while.
“We will see how understanding Airbus workers are of that concept on the next-gen NB.”
different attitudes:
Assisting workers (Airbus) vs replacing workers (Boeing).
@Abalone
I recall there’s a recent report that Boeing struggles to join sections of 777 fuselage together. 🙈
Different country. Plus in Europe, the workers are treated better for now. That will change as with any product being built labor is one the highest costs for the employer.
Thanks for that comment, Faust. Looking forward to the vote.
+ 1
I think it’s excellent that people like Faust expose the rot for us — makes a refreshing change from the glossy brochures coming from the PR Department.
Clearly this is just the beginning of this negotiation. Labor Leadership says okay that’s an offer, let’s see what the membership think of it? I would be very surprised if this is done in a single round of negotiations.
The employees want to strike. Well, the old guard wants to strike, I doubt the new employees do. There will be a strike. Probably similar to last year’s UAW strike. The employees wanted to walk out regardless of the fact they agreed to roughly the same contract negotiated pre strike. Optics.
I get the anger but you are not getting 40% percent. 27, 28 or 30 maybe, and if the negotiators truly have your best interest at heart a massive signing bonus upfront.
But I think they are going to walk, may last one or two weeks.
And Union, could you please tell us who worked on the plug door that blew out?
Regarding your last question: we learned a few weeks ago that the guy who normally does such door jobs was absent, and his place was (unwillingly) taken by a rookie who had previously worked at KFC and Taco Bell.
We learned from multiple sources yesterday that such new rookies were/are being taken on at minimum wage…so what do you expect?
Time to point the finger at middle and higher management — not at the floor workers.
The Union refused to identify the employee. Even to the Organization doing the investigation. The majority of the blame falls on management but that employee needs to be identified, helped and retrained, watched or shown the door.
………..Or he or she can work on your next A321 in Mobile.
Maybe he/she should work in one of BA’s canteens? That would suit his/her (catering industry) qualifications and wage level.
There seems to be no money to train him/her in (proper) aircraft manufacture.
On the other hand, plenty of money for private use of Boeing aircraft by board members.
A lot of US workers for the Mobile line were sent to Hamburg for training. It’s not about the worker. It’s about how someone is trained and when used in a position with responsibility.
It is not the job of a union to identify this worker. The company should be able to do it.
Unhappy employees, unhappy customers — and unhappy investors:
“Boeing Co. investors can proceed with allegations of securities fraud over statements that safety was a top priority at the company, a federal court ruled in a proposed class action that followed a mid-flight incident.”
https://news.bloomberglaw.com/litigation/boeing-investors-advance-lawsuit-over-safety-statements-risks
“Boeing committed to build the next new airplane in the Seattle area” is not the whole story. The commitment is only for programs started during the (four year) life of the agreement. As such, it is probably illusory, as BA has already stated that no new programs are expected this decade.
Mr. Ortberg is off to an impressive start, but as some other commentators note, the union rank-and-file may well reject ratification, out of reflex and militancy.
Well if Boeing restructures, ( and I think the possibility is there) if the unions are smart they will negotiate a stake in the company. Then the seat on the Board that they want is more than a showpiece.
Let’s not kid ourselves, this is all about money.
What’s wrong with wanting more money?
You can’t support a family from Mr. Ortberg’s floor walks and handshakes…
Board members are well able to give themselves money and perks…so why not include the other employees in the party?
Agreed, if there is enough money in the pot to spread around.
The pot is empty — even worse, it’s overdrawn.
But that’s not an excuse to continue exploiting employees.
Perhaps the board members should give themselves a voluntary 95% pay decrease, to help balance things out? After all, they don’t actually do any meaningful work…
A world full of unicorns and rainbows I see.
The pot isn’t empty. A company that has 52 billion in debts means that they were given that much credit and they are also supported by the federal government in multiple ways and also owned by Blackrock so their funds are pretty much infinite.
@ Jimmy John
What you’re actually saying is that the pot is, indeed, empty ($52B overdrawn) — and that external sugar daddies will be needed to (somewhat) replenish it.
Blackrock’s ownership of a portion of BA stock doesn’t change the fact that the pot is empty.
BA will limp along for a little while longer as it runs on the last bit of vapor in the tank. A credit downgrade will accelerate the inevitable demise. So will a trial for the Ethopian MAX crash. Another crash will finish the company altogether.
Circling the drain.
Boeing’s deposits taken for planes on order is equal to borrowing at $59 bill but is listed as liabilities but is free money to use until production starts for those despoits paid
Another form of asset waiting to be sold is the $79 bill mostly inventory parked
@ Dukeofurl
Deposits taken are already spent — long ago.
They’re listed as liabilities because they have to be credited against the sale price upon delivery (best case) or re-paid as a loan in the event of a penalty-free cancellation (worst case).
The pot is empty.
“Boeing’s deposits taken for planes on order is equal to borrowing at $59 bill but is listed as liabilities but is free money to use until production starts for those despoits paid”
It looks like a ponzi scheme, sounds like a ponzi scheme, functions like a ponzi scheme. What’s the name of it other than the ponzi scheme??
Does Boeing hold in escrow any pension funds?
@Uwe
According to BA’s latest SEC 10K filing:
“We fund our major pension plans through trusts. Pension assets are placed in trust solely for the benefit of the plans’ participants …”
https://www.sec.gov/ix?doc=/Archives/edgar/data/12927/000001292724000010/ba-20231231.htm
@williams
👇
“Boeings didn’t help the situation by giving Dave such a large raise.”
https://x.com/JSutter34688928/status/1833583732709855712
AB is able to pay and treat their employees well, while making a tidy profit (+rainy-day fund!).
Why can’t the other guys do the same?
The real final offer will come after the strike starts.
Likely.
I wonder what the vote will look like, as a measure of employee sentiment. 😉
You start with treating your employees well 🙂
That train has left for Boeing.
Then the legalities of the worker environment, “Mitsprache”, the pension and health insurance system in Europe prohibits Airbus from going the Boeing way.
This was long seen as an Airbus limitation accompanied by much derision. “Socialist Jobs Programme” and such ..
+1
for the sake of variety………
“COMAC wants to hit 150 (deliveries) in the next five years. That means that one-fourth of that China demand goes to COMAC,” said Brian Langenberg, principal and industrial strategist of Langenberg and Co”
it seems an article in Leeham has a “expert” miss reading Comac demands
Comac wants to product 150 aircraft C919 in 5 years (average, 30 a year- 2 1/2 C919 a month)
That does not equate to 1/4 of China demand (6,700 single aisle (e.g. Boeing) over 20 years is 336 single aisle a year or about 28 a month!
David:
The goal is 150 deliveries a year by year 5, not 150 total by year 5.
Granted at the pace COMAC moves it may be 150 periods but……..
The A220 is making 8 a month. In 5 years 14 a month (from memory).
So, call COMAC 10 a month in 5 years while laughing.
COMAC is building a second plant to meet demand. Production will gradually ramp up over time, like AB/BA, once the second plant is opened.
I don’t see 150 aircraft/year is what they target rn. There’s a bigger fish to fry.
Well no matter what you think you see, the target is 150 a year 5 years from now.
A 2nd plant does no good if your build efficiency is poor.
COMAC is a bloated behemoth that is government run and it shows. The term is Risk Adverse. And for good reason.
Kind of a shame about Jin Lee, Mongolia is such a dark and cold place. Maybe better than prison but………….
It’s not a “target”, it’s the foundation of building 150 or whatever number in coming years.
The “bloated behemoth” is the one at your backyard stumbling around, pushing out unfinished 777 with out-of-sequenced work.
TW veered off again trying hard to close the comment section.
😂 Exhibit A:
Boeing will increase 737 MAX production rates ‘very soon’
“Boeing Co will increase 737 MAX production rates above the current rate* of 31 jets per month “very soon*,” the head of its commercial airplanes business said on Thursday.
The company is also making progress with the new 737 MAX 7 model and is in the process of completing final submissions for Federal Aviation Administration certification, Stan Deal told reporters.
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/boeing-will-increase-737-max-production-rates-very-soon-says-head-commercial-2023-03-30/
Most likely Comac needs to design a stretch derivative with better range and lower cost, like Boeing did when the 787-9 was designed with lessons from the -8. That is probably a $20bn exercise and new engineers get a chance to show what they can do.
Has already been done — was announced weeks ago.
The C919 already has four different variants.
Yup.
There are now stories out there- (likely ‘AI’ “written”) including one now at Simple Flying- that Boeing has, as part of this provisional agreement, *agreed to build* the ‘797’; and in the Seattle area. Hunh?
“News” on the internet is quickly becoming close to worthless. Who’s the source, and of what veracity, if any?
“797” is just an old designation for the whole NBA/NMA pantomime.
Simple Flying evidently fell for the (meaningless) hype.
Remember those persons once called “editors”?
My point was this trash is being parlayed via a highly opaque medium as though it’s legit- and it’s not. Expect much more of the same..
“797”, my aching backside..
Adding: I agree that the stuff coming out of BCA
PR Dept for the past dozen or more years is well-described as “pantomime”: “Why build a new plane when we can instead talk endlessly about Our Latest Vaporware?”
Boeing Renton contracted a supplier earlier this year for about $100 million for new wing riveters to replace (not rate increase) the 1960 vintage WRS (last year they replaced the track liners). They could have spent 10-15% of that to maintain the old WRS over next 5-10 years. So talk from Boeing about a new commercial aircraft to replace the 737 is smoke and mirrors.
Thanks for this informative comment, DP.
Anything is possible when the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing.
Look at the clueless show that Brian West put on before, during and after the recent $10B bond issuance.
No form of logic is applicable to that company.
“Anything is possible when the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing.”
So back to the Boeing Renton 737 wing riveter “story”
Back in the 1960’s the original WRS and foundation was for WRS with 72 inch throat depth…it been upgraded twice to current version of 96″ At that time, counterweights were needed under the rear platform so the C Frame and Z towers wouldn’t tip forward. Again at that time, the weigh limitation for the 140 ft pier foundation was about max out
So most likely the new WRS will have 120 inch C Frame along with heavier superstructure. Any weight concerns? Why put new WRS on 60 year foundation that has hydro effects from the lake. Add 40 years of production…do you expect that original foundation to last 100 years?
Well maybe that is why the move to Everett.
Frankly they should have moved a long time ago.
Renton is small and crowded and sell the joint and move North (slowly over time)
Link to the hyped:
https://simpleflying.com/boeing-promises-new-797/
“We don’t do details.”
I enjoyed the one commenter-wag’s suggestion to call this latest Boeing vaporware thingie “757 MAX”.
😉 😉
Vaporware?
The 929 comes to mind
The C929 is actually being designed.
The 797 is just a PR term.
“Vaporware?
The 929 comes to mind”
That is taken.
My guess is the vapors around the 929
will solidify long before a “any funny tag” Boeing product will emerge.
old riveters:
is it because Boeing was profitable in the 60ties that all that superanuated stuff must be refurbished ( instead of going with the tech evolution ) ?
Most likely is 2 competing versions of the 797 already designed, but the manufacturing system to get to volume and desired profit margin in not. Then comes the issue of how big sections should be made/shipped and where should those fully stuffed sections be “snapped” together close to the biggest customers in the world.
A design today is covering the production layout/system too.
no way around it.
without a production design incorporated those “competing 797 versions” are nothing more than napkin sketches. … or 4color handouts for the gullible.
“Boeing employees express discontent with new tentative contract, threaten to strike”
“But in the Boeing factories, workers are not buying it. They’re using their break times to march in solidarity against it.
“Well, the atmosphere in the building is pretty motivated,” Brandon Felton, a Boeing Machinist
“A number of employees sent KOMO News videos and photos of the break-time marches inside the factory and on Boeing property of workers outwardly showing their discontent with this contract offer.”
https://komonews.com/news/local/boeing-machinists-strike-contract-workers-ratify-wage-tentative-terms-vote-union-company-pay-negotiation
“Boeing delays suppliers’ 737 MAX output goal by 6 months, sources say”
“Boeing Co has told suppliers it is delaying a key production milestone for its 737 MAX by six months, three industry sources said, in a sign the planemaker is struggling to boost production of its best-selling jet.
“Boeing’s latest 737 supplier master schedule communicated to the industry calls for MAX output to reach 42 a month in March 2025, compared with a previous target of September 2024, the sources told Reuters.”
https://www.ajot.com/news/exclusive-boeing-delays-suppliers-737-max-output-goal-by-6-months-sources-say
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Interesting that line rates of 38 or 42 are still being mentioned, when today’s line rate is only about 15-20.
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6 months delay?
Is that a step to allow for the effects of a strike?
“Interesting that line rates of 38 or 42 are still being mentioned, when today’s line rate is only about 15-20.”
Just like on the 777 line:
they are firing blanks 🙂
Wake me up when BA reaches 38 a month, in six months or so (at least?).
“.. almost there!” Hey, fifteen is pretty close to forty-two..
😉
42 MAXes per month- by March? Dreaming..
“Here, pull the other one.”
42 was the answer to the question ….
😉
“Boeing Union Leader Defends Pay Deal as Worker Backlash Builds”
“From northern California to Idaho, strike preparations are under way, with IAM members making signs along with “burn barrels” to warm picket lines. In online forums, hundreds of employees vented their rage, often in harsh terms, at a deal they say doesn’t do enough to improve their financial standing.
“Leaflets distributed around Boeing’s Everett factory on Monday urged workers to reject “Boeing’s Bad Deal” and to approve authorizing a strike when they vote on Thursday. It demanded the union fight for a 40% wage increase, board seat and pensions.
“Stand strong,” said a handout viewed by Bloomberg. “We deserve a fair deal.”
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“Boeing Union deal sparks outrage as workers demand higher wages, pension restoration”
https://www.livemint.com/companies/news/boeing-union-deal-sparks-outrage-as-workers-demand-higher-wages-pension-restoration-11725930090910.html
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Looks like the honeymoon is over…
Meanwhile, over at that over OEM that treats its employees well, 47 aircraft (including 6 widebodies) were delivered in August — despite August being “holiday month” in Europe:
“August 2024 was not all about summer vacation for Airbus as the manufacturer noted down orders for 46 aircraft. It also was able to deliver 47 Airbuses.”
“Over 2024, Airbus has now received 432 orders and nineteen cancellations, leaving a net of 413 orders. The number of deliveries this year stands at 447.”
https://www.scramble.nl/civil-news/airbus-august-2024-orders-deliveries
“It was instantly obvious in the hours that followed the Sunday announcement of the “historic” agreement between Boeing and the @IAM751 that this contract was being very poorly received by the rank and file members of the union who build the company’s jetliners.”
https://x.com/jonostrower/status/1833391856325202230
Union endorsement, new airplane agreement likely won’t avoid Boeing strike
https://t.co/BWTvgxY9Pe
“Machinist union district 751 president Jon Holden on the Boeing contract offer he recommended his members accept: “The response from people is it’s not good enough. “Right now, I think it will be voted down, and our members will vote to strike.”
https://x.com/dominicgates/status/1833346565093920859
Watch the video posted by D Gates
https://x.com/dominicgates/status/1833350952809861376
Meanwhile, over in China:
“China’s first MA60 firefighting airplanes delivered”
https://news.cgtn.com/news/2024-08-28/China-s-first-MA60-firefighting-airplanes-delivered-1wqM3OebmN2/p.html
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“China’s AG600 amphibious aircraft completes first certification flight test”
https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/chinas-ag600-amphibious-aircraft-completes-first-certification-flight-test
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“China’s AS700 manned airship completes first cross-provincial ferry flight”
https://news.cgtn.com/news/2024-08-21/China-s-AS700-manned-airship-makes-first-cross-provincial-ferry-flight-1wfxoyCWNnq/p.html
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“Chinese GJ-11 Sharp Sword UCAV spotted during test flight..”
https://armyrecognition.com/news/aerospace-news/2024/video-chinese-gj-11-sharp-sword-ucav-spotted-during-test-flight
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Must be fake news — after all, various commenters here have reassured us that the Chinese are totally incompetent as regards building a domestic aviation industry 😂
“Vaporware”!
They are shooting their “top gun” movie … 😅
What substance does the rumor of moving Boeing headquarters back to Seattle have?