Thanks Scott, think AP Robert will have fun with this. To see how pathetic things got go to page 20. Boeing made claims that BBD got ground in 2005 at Mirabel below fair market value to build the C series. Reply
Thanks Scott, think AP Robert will have fun with this.
To see how pathetic things got go to page 20. Boeing made claims that BBD got ground in 2005 at Mirabel below fair market value to build the C series.
Also lots of going on about research Grants.
So, there is no spinoffs for Boeing from NASA.
Think Canada can nail Boeing with a 500% tariff for all future Boeing imports to Canada?
So, Boeing gets 8 billion + from WA, never pays taxes and then there is a 220% hit on BBD?
They can also sell a 737-700 to United for 25 million (and then sell higher in other markets?)
nothing new, new, the system stinks.
McNenearny wanted to take SS away while he got his 10s of millions.
And they wonder why people voted for someone who at least mouthed the frustration even through he is a huckster ?
‘They can also sell a 737-700 to United for 25 million (and then sell higher in other markets?)’: in fact, the row is about selling lower in other markets, surely?
Details seem to be it cost BBD 33 million to make a brand new state of the art C Series.
Not bad when Boeing sells a 737 at a loss for 25 million (ie old established and paid for production system)
No wonder they are scared ” *(^)^&%$#@ ” (starts and ends with S)
Translated in my native tongue something to do with holes?
no, something to do with empty bowels.
That’s really a shameful endeavor from Boeing.
Note to everyone, Boeing doesn’t care about what you think.
The law seems to allow them to do this. It makes me wonder if this sort of thing is going on in other industries. This will be a major problem for the car industry or any business that requires a large investment. I can’t see how program accounting is enough to get Boeing themselves off the hook.Their advantage is that most countries don’t have an airliner manufacturer.
Regarding – “This will be a major problem for the car industry or any business that requires a large investment.”
There were a number of dumping cases against Japanese auto manufacturers in the US 1980’s and 1990’s. See the link below for an article about one case. The Japanese manufacturers eliminated the issue by locating auto manufacturing plants in the US. This was a long time ago, but my recollection is that the Japanese politicians and executives involved didn’t have the same aptitude for public threats, ultimatums, and complaints about the system that the participants in the Bombardier – Boeing dispute do. My recollection is that Japanese politicians had little to say about these cases, and the Japanese auto executives went quietly about developing strategies to continue to expand their market share in the US, under whatever rules and judgments they had to operate under.
I am writing this in the US state of Alabama, where foreign auto manufacturers Honda, Hyundai, Mercedes-Benz, and Toyota currently operate auto manufacturing plants.
In the UK in the seventies, we had the extremely civilised “gentleman’s agreement” which basically meant that the Japanese went easy on the British car industry and gave it time to collapse slowly.
Baring in mind that most of the Cseries is already made in the US, have you any idea how much assembly it would take for BBD to be counted as a US producer?
This site seems to be fairly good at detailing CSeries component and system suppliers:
Doesn’t mention nationality, but I made that to be about 20 different countries.
Since this is an aviation related website, perhaps I should added to my post above that the US State of Alabama, from which I am writing this has, in addition to several automobile manufacturing plants operated by non US based companies, a manufacturing plant operated by some European Aerospace company called Airbus.
Are their regulations that AB can’t sell A320/1’s assembled at Mobile below production cost to someone outside the US?
Won’t be clever to do but just wonder how far and selective he US Governments controls are. Boeing have been doing it with 787 for many moons.
“Big Brother Watching You”.
In light of these factual anecdotes, because this is what it is all about, how to structure a vacuum out of nothing that does not fit the reality of things, one can see how DOC officials are weight to Boeing elements than to Bombardier elements. It’s time for Justin Trudeau to add an annex to his new air traffic bill: to give Delta special permission to start a Canadian subsidiary … to operate in the United States with its new CSeries. And do the same for all the other US airlines that would like to buy CSeries for their regional and inter-regional links …
@anton hit it on the nail. The NASA budget is not a subsidy to aerospace in the good ‘ole USA and the same applies to the $8.7billion of tax break to Boeing to build the 777X
The good ‘ole USA is defining a subsidy to suit its protective practices
Deference to those Americans who are as concerned as the rest of us
Boeing share price up 55% this year, they are laughing to the Bank. Those directors must be creaming it, do you think they give a hood about 4000 people in Ireland that can loose their jobs and families without income.
This is the Boeing way! Not achieving it through excellence but manipulating the systems, and they found the ultimate partner in Mr.T.
BBD CS-series just another splat on the floor, and DL without the aircraft they want.
The devil makes work for idol hands, the northern Irish must be kept busy at all costs.
I like those guys, salt of the earth. But don’t mess with them.
When Allcock and Brown crossed the Atlantic for the first time, they wanted to know how they could tell if they had ended up in France or Ireland. They were advised that if they were over Ireland the locals would be punching each other.
Following up on the previous post, here is a link which says it is estimated that between 50% and 55% of the CSeries components/systems are from US suppliers:
The author of article states that “US aerospace supply chain jobs WILL be negatively impacted” over the ruling, “as the replacement aircraft would likely come from Brazil rather than the Canada.”
However, if Embraer did supply Delta, they also use Pratt’s Purepower engines, in addition to other US suppliers on their aircraft. So I suspect that the net impact to US aerospace jobs might be marginal.
Now that it is clear that reality doesn’t come into play at the DOC, Boeing can go to the DOC and claim similarly that Airbus, ATR, and Embraer are selling to the US market below cost and threatening Boeing’s livelihoods and then they will have a monopoly and can charge whatever they want….screw the american air passenger when their airfares rise as the airlines pass on their higher aircraft costs thanks to Boeing. The US government is unleashing a global trade war and drop in trade that will make us all poorer….great job Boeing and US government (NOT)….american citizens should be just as upset as Canadians and UK citizens once they understand the full implications of this banana republic decision. The US has started the entire world down a very dark and dangerous path….this is very sad for us all.
The USDC’s decision was Bogus. And Boeing will pay for their own decision by world wide descension of Boeing in their eyes.
It’s clear that this administration has no clue of what they are starting.
Tariffs work both ways. If Europe starts this game, then China, and India may find a way to charge Tariffs on Boeing’s products sold to those countries as well.
What I see is the big picture here. And the picture I see is that UNCLE SAM needs more money and it’s going to get from the US COMPANIES who have it, one way or another.
They’re about to start with Alphabet/Goolge, Microsoft, Cisco,
by getting them to repatriate their world reserves for a small 10-15% one time fee/tax. And Tariffs and anything else they can get their hands on. Trump maybe stupid but he’s not dumb.
Its true that tariffs work both ways but its been one way traffic for the last few decades in Europe abd the US. The western NATO countries basically. But there’s not much Western countries can do anyway as they are corrupt and rotten to the core. They would be better off finding why they had allowed tarifs to go one way only for decadss but then they’d find that the reason was themselves.
America imposing tariffs against Bombardier is clearly not going to help.
Who benefits from all this? ChYna.
Trump is meely a lout mouthed pupppet. He can do nothing to stop any of this.
Could you substantiate your claim that all western countries are ‘corrupt and written to the core’ please, seems a tad overblown to me. In terms of overt corruption I don’t necessarily believe western countries have the preserve on this or are the most excessive practitioners of the game
There’s too much lobbying in Western countries today, whether visible or stealthy. Its rampant. And everyone knows it. if anyone tries to do something about it, they will be linked to some Russian hacking conspiracy.
Will establishing a CS1/3 assembly plant in the US result in these tariffs not being applicable?
Looking at the magnitude of the current imposed tariff and potential further ones it will pay Delta to put up its own assembly plant in the US to build the CS1 and potential future CS aircraft required.
Airbuses Mobile plant apparently costed $600M to build, that is equivalent to the first tariff imposed for only 15 aircraft.
Maybe also swop PW1500G assembly to the US and PW1100G production to Canada?
For US domestic consumption, 1 aircraft per week, 50/annum,
Could be a neat little operation, at least 10 years life.
Could this make a difference, UK Defense contract/s?
Its not Mr.T that imposed the tariff, its Wilbur Ross. See link.
Wilburrrrrr! He’s very a very good candidate for creating jobs in America! In buying up “Little Steel” in about 1980s, (Bethlehem, Inland, LTV; he sold them to India! Steel importing has been increasing every since. Wilburrrrrr!
I prefer Wilbur Smith books.
Now they that Trumps boys are flying private, wonder if he was offered an 737-MAX7 BBJ by Boeing for hopping arround?
This is worth reading. O’Conner gave evidence that Boeing offered Delta a mix of B717’s and Embraer E-Jets. I couldn’t believe it!!!!
@Anton: Harumph. We wrote about that at the time!!!
Thanks Scott, FLX right. Got a lot of catch-up reading to do.
This is worth a read, subsidies to US airliner makers.
Thanks Anton, extremely interesting read! Learned a lot, although I said much of the same in my post in the other thread.
Some good stuff in there.
Without the very large US Government funding for the JD3&8 engines Boeing would not have been in a position to start building jet aircraft.
…wonder what Boeing will do if an airline in the US orders C919’s or MC21’s?
Maybe Delta should order one of each and see what happens?
NASA Budget 2017, US$19Billion. Page 325 (of 712), development of ultra efficient commercial (supersonic) vehicle (aircraft).
Spicejet confirmed an order for 50 Q400’s. Wonder if Boeing is going to cry foul play? They offered Delta a combination of second hand 717’s and E175’s as alternative to the CS100.
They could have offered Spicejet the 1947 B377’s, a 100 seat prop.
Now that BBD in India, there must be a good market for an CS100 type aircraft between the ATR72/Q400 and A320/MAX8’s linking thinner and longer range connections in India.
There could also be application to link destinations in India directly (“city pair model”) with smaller destinations in Central Asia, China Indian Islands.