Odds and Ends: 787 fuel savings at ANA; Airbus will benefit from Boeing

ANA 787s: Market Watch quotes an ANA official saying the Boeing 787-8 is saving 21% in fuel over eh previous airplanes. The article didn’t ID the previous planes, but they were the Boeing 767-300ER. Note, too, that the initial 787-8s are heavy and with Rolls-Royce engines that don’t initially meet specs.

Airbus to benefit from Boeing: The latter is closing its Wichita operations. The former will likely hire some of Boeing’s soon-to-be-out-of-work engineers. Here’s the article. Note that former Kansas Sen. Sam Brownback, who is now governor, was present garbed in Airbus colors. This is the same Brownback who couldn’t diss Airbus enough during the EADS-Boeing tanker competition. Now Airbus seems to be Brownback’s best friend.

China-EU showdown over ETS: China continues to refuse to comply with the European Union’s demand that carbon emissions information be provided. China, which already refused to firm up orders for 45 Airbus A330s, threatened to impound European airplanes if the EU retaliates against China’s refusal to comply.

Air Lease Corp to order MAX: Steve  Udvar-Hazy, CEO of the lessor, plans to order the 737 MAX within the next few weeks. Boeing wants to firm up orders from ALC, CIT Aerospace, ILFC, GECAS and Aviation Capital Group by or at the Farnborough Air Show.

22 Comments on “Odds and Ends: 787 fuel savings at ANA; Airbus will benefit from Boeing

  1. ANA, Mr. Ito : ..787, seating 220..250 save 21% fuel between Frankf. and Haneda ..

    Seating for ANA 787 is 46 + 112 ~= 158 seats ?
    originally that route seems to have been flown with 777

    • ANA has several different configurations for different types of routes. TB – the 268 configuration is for domestic use and not suitable for long flights. Uwe – as the article said it replaced 767-300ERs. ANA has many more 767’s than 777’s in service.

      There has been much discussion here about the performance (or lack there of) of the 787. I think this is clearly showing that it is truly performing much better than the current generations of aircraft, and it will improve further with later line numbers/engines.

  2. That is only some of the NH B-787s, Uwe. Others have 12 + 252 = 264 seats. I don’t know which version flies to FRA, but my guess is if it was flown by the B-777 before, then it will be flown by the 264 seat version now. That is unless the route has fallen into the dumps now.

    Good to see the MAX getting more orders.

    • The other higher seatcount arrangement seems to be national flights. ( a duh obvious arrangement, surely? )

      • NH has about 7 B-788s right now, They are probibly all being used on both.

  3. That shows clearly how money decides. Before Boeing pulled out he was a stern B supporter, now Airbus will pay the bills, screw Boeing. If people would just stop being slaves under greed they would be more honest. Why would Airbus trust a guy like this? You can never trust someone that is slave to greed.

    • What about production limits at MHI said to originally allow 6 (or slightly above ) shipsets per month?
      My prediction was that when Boeing is realistically ready to go beyond 6..7 MHI will expand
      their autoclave capability.

  4. I am routing for China. Cancel all outstanding Airbus orders now, order Boeings as a way to stop the stupid global tax the EU implamented called ETS. Yes, it is a global tax. When an AA B-777 departs DFW for LHR, the stupid global reach of the ETS extends all the way back to engine start at DFW, not just the portion of the flight that is actually in the EU/UK airspace.

    • then again, pollution is a global issue…
      I must admit I kinda like the idea of “he who pollutes, pays” – and even IF global warming is not happening, or is not man made, or does not result significantly from aviation (all more or less valid points, though I am convinced on global warming) – it is still a good principle to motivate everyone to minimize pollution.
      if nothing else, we may see more corporate interest in maintaining forests and such (part of ETS)

      Yes, China – good plan to dry up your own A320 line

    • How would you equate Iranian scantions (which even much of the EU is doing) to ETS is beyond me. Those US laws are a reflection of the UN scantions. As far as I know, the UN Security Council has not approved the EU’s global tax ETS, nor has the General Assembly.

      What if the US began an “Airbus Tax” on every Airbus imported into the US at say 10% of the market value (list prices)? What if the US recipracated with our own version of ETS, taxing LH, BA, AF, and others from engine start to their distinations in the US, or if they overfly US airspace to get to Mexico and Central America (via great circle navigation), then used the revenue collected to pay down our national debt (instead of climate change, just like the EU is doing)? What if we only applied to European airlines, and not all the international airlines of the world?

      It would be exactly the same as the EU ETS, which is going to strangle airlines around the world as people learn more about the tax and how it is spent in Europe.

      What the EU has done is placed a global tax on nearly 60% of airplane flights in the world, and 100% that must use any European airport. The EU has stated this is really a “global warming/climate change tax”, but the revenues generated by the tax do not go to support that cause, it goes to support European social programs.

      • “What if the US began an “Airbus Tax” ” – it’s called import duties. they fall under the WTO and we’d have another useless legal action that would only serve to ensure a luxurious pension for an army of lawyers.

        “What if the US recipracated with our own version of ETS” – please do, ETS is intended to be global, and will work better if it is enforced globally!

        “pay down our national debt” – please do – ETS will motivate industry to reduce pollution (lowering tax income). Also, the world could do with a load less debt. and if there’s financial breathing room again, we (US and EU) can finally get some of the more serious problems soleved (like the end of oil, poverty and such)

        I do not think tax money raised in support of an specific goal is usually spend exclusively in support of that goal (tax on tobacco to improve health, income tax benefits do not flow back just to the worker)

  5. EU will end up losing more than it gains by trying to force this ETS BS on the world. This time the frogs have gone too far imo, they havent even asked the rest of EU what we think.

  6. “Note, too, that the initial 787-8s are heavy and with Rolls-Royce engines that don’t initially meet specs.”

    Applies to only 2 airframes (LN8, LN9), LN24 is from the LN20-LN33 lot, while all other deliveries have been post LN34 block point. All aircraft have Trent Package B engines in the meantime. So the majority is later builds with improved engines. Still, 21% is 21%

  7. You would expect fuel usage to drop by 21% if the they flying mostly empty.

  8. 21% is certainly a nice saving but I think this one statement is somewhat difficult to quantify.
    “Mr. Ito said the 787 twinjets, which carry around 220 to 250 passengers, help the airline save around 21% of fuel consumption on each flight”. Note that they “help” to save 21% of fuel consumption. What does that really mean?

    I don’t doubt that they are saving significantly on fuel, but is it really 21% due to the use of the 787 alone?

  9. I’m all for a cleaner environment for my kids and we should save the earth as long as I can make more exotic holidays, drive awfull cars and aviation keeps growing at 4-5% every year. Lets find someone who states there isn’t an issue with the environment, say others do it too and fly the hell out of our skies. What can I do..

    • Careful keesje, my friend. You are sounding like Al Gore…….

  10. KC135TopBoom :
    NH has about 7 B-788s right now, They are probibly all being used on both.

    Probably (very much) not the case.
    Go to ANA’s web presence and go through the process of booking flights ( showing and choosing from the seating arrangement is part of the process) . then report back here 😉

    You may notice in the process that in recent history no 767 seem to have been dispatched to FRA. On that route the 787 replaces 777 flights.

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