Leeham News and Analysis
There's more to real news than a news release.
Leeham News and Analysis
- Boeing unlikely to meet FAA’s 90-day deadline for new safety program April 18, 2024
- Focus on quality not slowing innovation, says GKN April 18, 2024
- Boeing defends 787, 777 against whistleblower charges April 17, 2024
- Dissecting Boeing CEO’s statement next new airplane will cost $50bn April 15, 2024
- Bjorn’s Corner: New engine development. Part 3. Propulsive efficiency April 12, 2024
Odds and Ends: Lufthansa on Airbus plan; Lion Air; Boeing statement on IAM deal; CSeries test flights
Lufthansa on Airbus’ 18-inch seat plan: Nein! Runway Girl Network (Mary Kirby’s new venture) reports that Lufthansa’s fleet planner doesn’t think much of the Airbus campaign to make coach seat width an 18-inch standard for the industry.
Lion Air: Aviation Week has an article that falls short of a full profile of Lion Air but one which discusses some of the thinking of those huge airplane orders.
Boeing on IAM deal: In the crush and rush of the events yesterday, we didn’t see this Boeing statement on the tentative agreement for extend the IAM contract for eight years in exchange for building the 777X in Seattle.
CSeries: It looks like software upgrades, vibration and shimmy tests are done and flight testing in back on track. Yesterday Bombardier’s CSeries had its fifth flight and its sixth appears coming today, according to Fliegerfaust, a blog mostly dedicated to CSeries news.
I don’t know about anyone here but I’m hoping the CSeries to be a success. It ostensibly seems to be a great plane with excellent economics.
Boeing and Airbus are not focusing too much on the B737-700 and A319 sized market, and CSeries has the better economics (on paper), it’s now up to Bombardier to attract new customers.
https://gallery.mailchimp.com/3b20189cf917b81454c948301/images/90.2.jpg
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http://www.stockhouse.com/companies/bullboard/t.bbd.b/bombardier-inc?postid=21816368
FTV1 is airborne now, the 6th flight is underway.
“Nein!”
Time to dig up those good old ‘Allo ‘Allo episodes 😀
go figure LH is not a fan of a supplier badmouthing their product as spec’d.
Maybe LH can set up the 777-9 with 10 and 9 acrossed. 10 at 31″ pitch, or 9 at 34″ pitch for 20% more. If rational pricing exists, I’m guessing more people will pay for extra space.
That’s the basic concept with premium economy. AC is switching their 773s from 9-abreast @ 32″ to 10-abreast @ 31″ (possibly with a thinner seat, though), but adding a section of 8-abreast @ 38″. Based on the size of the section — only 3 rows and 24 seats — they don’t seem to expect heavy take-up for premium economy fares though.
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Air_Canada/Air_Canada_Boeing_777-300.php
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Air_Canada/Air_Canada_Boeing_777-300ER_77W_new.php
That’s interesting. Looks like about 50% more space, hopefully it will be priced at 50% over economy. The middle seats need extra armrest space to make them equal in value to the other 6 in the row.
Picking a random travel date in January (after christmas peak season), YVR-HKG one-way:
Super discount Y $665
Restricted Y $936
Flexible Y $2662
Premium economy (restricted) $1292
Restricted J $2623
Flexible J $5839
Compared to the restricted Y, it’s about a 40% premium for a similar ticket.
Imagine a fresh 777X customer concluding 17 inch seats are to narrow for real long flights.. Now, that would be news!
Funny that Mr. Buchholz talks about sacrificing width for the sake of pitch. What exactly is he trying to say? Lufthansa widebodies are almost all 31″ in economy, with the occasional 32″ thrown in for varieties sake, I suppose. Being based in a country where the average height is 6 feet plus, the LH pitches are incredibly knee crushing. Even Air France has minimum 32″ on their widebody fleet.
Can’t wait to see what wonderful layout LH come out with when they redo their 744 fleet. Maybe they will even approach the 32″ pitch threshold?!
I think Boeing and the 17 inch operators / airliners have a strong, very strong interest to conclude 17 inch seat width for long haul is totally acceptable, not a problem, up to the airlines, others do it to, todays reality, unavoidable, maybe even a perfect rational, natural, ecological and evolutional prorgessioin. You’re nuts if you don’t do it! They’ll repeat it a zillion time and hope it sticks..
Unfortunately there’s only 1 that pays all the aircraft, tickets, fuel, seats, blue collar, pilot & CEO salaries / mortgages, final assembly lines and carbon wonderplanes: the passenger. And if they start sharing which aircraft / airlines to avoid / prefer for long haul, there’s red alert in the industry. And Airbus is naturally throwing oil on the fire. Subtile, scientific avoiding direct confrontations with e.g. EK and AF..
Passeneger reviews tell a clear story:
http://www.airlinequality.com/Product/Yseat-AF.htm
And you say that to say what? Air travel is terrible today and that is driven by the airlines not making money for quite a few years and by those LCC who think that no frills is what customers want. Guess what customers bought the tickets and the world has not looked back. 17″ seats may not be comfortable but as customers we lose our right to complain when we go for the low dollar service points.
Iroom7 please go over the comments in the link I provided. Some are A380, some 777-200ER and many 777-300ER. Damaging, without exception. BA tried 10 abreast also on the 777 and quickly changed their minds. Uncomfortable isn’t the right qualification because it has the word comfort in it.
Hi everyone! About the 18-inch seat standard:
– Airbus does realise that they offer 9-abreast A330, 10-abreast A350 and 11-abreast A380?
– Airbus does realise that its largest customer for the A380 (EK) is currently talking about taking Airbus up on the 11-abreast offer?
– Airbus does realise that its largest customer of the A380 and one of its largest customers overall is also the largest operator of the Boeing 777 with 17-inch seats?
– Did the A330 not ENTER SERVICE with 9-abreast seats in economy with Air Inter way back in 1994 before any airline probably even contemplated fitting the 777 with 10-abreast and when the 787 was not even a dream?
– Airbus does realise that 19- or 20-inch seats would offer even better comfort so with that logic the A350 and A380 should come standard with 20-inch wide 8- and 9-abreast seats respectively, why stop at just 18?
– Airbus does realise that the A350 will be 1-inch narrower per seat (upto 18-inces for the A350 vs upto 19-inches for the A330/777) than its own A330 and even the 777 (based on the original 9-abreast envisioned by Boeing)?
– Airbus does realise that to accommodate 18-inch wide seats on the A350 it will be stuck with aisles as narrow as those on a 9-abreast 787 or 10-abreast 777?
– Airbus does realise that the A350 offers the same space at 9-abreast that the 747 offers at 10-abreast, even though it comes some 40-50 years later, just like the 777/787 offers the same space for Y pax that the 707 did some 40-50 years before?
Also, while Airbus are at it and seeing as the headline on its website reads “Rest assured: Airbus’ Head of Passenger Comfort is focused on inflight well-being”, why not get rid of those dreadful 60-inch pitch wedgie J seats, used on its aircraft on the Aircraft Characteristics page, that cost more to fly in than some/most people earn in a month…
Why stop at seat width, pitch is more important and probably a greater source of discomfort for many people?
This just seems like a rushed and childish attempt by Airbus to cover its weakness (lack of seating flexibility of A350 vs 777/787) as a strength (extra comfort) that sadly the majority of Y pax will not be willing and/or able to pay for (myself included). Yes, I would like more space but I would rather use the extra money over my 2 week holiday than on an 16 to 24 hour return flight. I cannot afford to fly J or even Y+ but I accept the reality of Y. When margins in the industry are at ~1%, oil price is through the roof and people are not willing to pay more for airfares do you really blame airlines for trying to make some money while still offering reasonable comfort (17-inch seats)?
I love Airbus and wish them all the success in the universe but I cannot help but feel embarrassed by this campaign especially because its aircraft are absolutely phenomenal machines and feats of engineering which deserve more than a silly campaign that disregards many other facts…